What about the song "Happy Holidays"? You didn't hear people pissing and moaning at Bing Crosby.

If you want to call your tree a Christmas tree, nobody is stopping you. Not even Governor Chafee. I'm having trouble seeing how the governor's name for the tree is taking anything away from Christians.

I think it should be called a Yule tree.

@Spring Street - It's not really "Oh Christmas Tree" -- the song is really "O Tannenbaum" which means fir tree, and is an old Germanic pagan tradition, not Christian. God hates Christmas Trees, read your Bible: Jeremiah 10:3-4.

Who cares what you call it! I call it a 'dead tree with lights and ornaments'. What it means to me is what's important!
We really need to focus on the important issues of the day, like feeding the hungry, and providing shelter to those unable to afford it.
That's what the 'tree' means to me.
Tom

Does any sane human being really beleive these poll numbers... 92% want to rename the Christmas Tree. This Patch News is more left wing , than Cuba's Chronicle or the Huffington Post.

Also would like to point out that most of the comments are being led by Pro Christmas Tree. With 8,000 people voting for changing dont you think the board would be overrun by the Pro Holiday Tree people......something just doesnt add up.

Only an idiot would beleive these polls. 92% want to change the Christmas Tree To Holiday Tree. Why do leftwing websites keep shoveling us this garbage. If I ran this site I would at least make it half way beleivable to skew my ideology. But whoever is running this stop with the fake numbers.

RE - THE POLL: Ron, can you please read the entire thread before you sound off on something that's already been talked to death 20 times over?

Why can't the christians be "tolerant" of the other religions in the state? I believe that's what Roger Williams had in mind...".all religion" as opposed to "no religion"

Talk about tolerance? Other religions have holidays and symbols that do not get renamed. For instance, Kwanzaa has the Mkeka, Hanukkah has the Menorah, etc.
Why is it intolerant to want to preserve the name of Chistmas's Christmas Tree?

JTP - No one's saying that you cannot call it a Christmas tree. Other people call it different things. Let it go, people.

Just as I am going to decorate my Wookie Life Day Tree with the scalps of all the enemies I have vanquished in the past year, while my Ewok cousins dance around their beheaded skulls. Happy Life Day! And a merry Ewok Empire Defeat day to you, too!

Are you saying that most grade school children are more intelligent than the Governor?

Good one Joe! Aren't you clever? More kids recognize an image of Ronald MacDonald than an image of Jesus. Not sure that proves much of anything. And Stephen, in my time on Earth there have been lots of things that have "always" been thus, that is the weakest argument ever for keeping things the same. Women's voting rights, Gay rights, civil rights and many other things were unheard of until the 20th century. Fortunately there were people who were clever enough to decide that the way is WAS is wrong and fixed things. It is called progress. Chafee represents progress. Do you really want to go back to the way things were in the Bible. I think not. Much progress has been made and it does not stop just because you want it to.

take the same picture and ask the kids if it is a picture of a holiday tree, yes or no; and see how they reply.

no she probably hangs at burnside park.

She is too busy fighting real issues with the separation of church and state to give a rat's ass about whether people want to call a decorated tree a x-mas tree or a holiday tree. As an atheist and a domestic engineer in middle class American, it will always be a christmas tree. Christmas has nothing to do with christ and everything to do with the winter solstice and St Nick (who was a real person BTW.)

And she wonders why she has NO FRIENDS....... I also wonder if our Governor listens to the radio....... or is he going to put a stop to that too.... I swear he does these things just to stir up the ...you know what..... Anyway... Merry CHRISTMAS TO EVERYONE !!!!!!!!

Oh wow! You people are disgusting! You randomly attack a CHILD, because your brains can't accommodate the idea of someone calling your revered tree (A TREE - what does the bible say about IDOLATRY??) something different than what you are used to? Maybe you should all join up for the coaching staff at Penn State?

Paul, I know what Jeremiah 10:3-4 says about Christmas trees... lol.

Not to mention the fact that Christians stole the custom of the decorated evergreen tree from the Romans, who celebrated their god during Saturnalia. It wasn't until Christians hijacked it and claimed it for their own that people started recognizing it as a Christmas tradition.

All you people getting up in arms over this issue, as well as hurling insults at a 15-year-old girl, are pathetic and need to grow up. Nobody can take your Christianity or beliefs or traditions away from you, except yourself. Why does it matter what your local government calls their tree? Is it really going to affect your life so much? Why not try to focus on feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, helping out those in need... you know, kind of like what your Jesus did in the bible?

I swear, more Christians need to be more Christ-life instead of arrogant soldiers on a mission to demand even more privilege that their religion already has.

Must be sure to ask Cranston West if I can put up a Muslim prayer in the school. I am sure you would be okay with that, right David. What a moron you are to think this has anything to do with that young woman's bravery to stand up and enforce the law. btw Ann. this lovely young woman has lots of friends, and I would bet she will go much farther in life, love, and respect than you will. I like the idea of a Yule tree! lol

I agree with you 100%..... He should tend to Governing..... The guy is a murderer... why is he protecting him.......? ? anyway...MERRY CHRISTMAS..... and it will always be a Christmas Tree to me......

Yes, kill the bum. Great Christian attitude. Oh wait, what are these ten rules given to us from God. Let's ignore the one that tells us not to murder. How CONVENIENT! As the church lady says. Anti-abortion but pro death penalty. What a bunch of hypocrits. And fertilized zygote has more rights than an actual person does. RI does not have the death penalty, that is the law.

It can't come fast enough..... I really can't understand how he even got elected.....

He got elected because he looks out for the weak, the poor, the minorities. He tries to include everyone, not just the majority. I lost my COLA too, but I understand why it may have been necessary. Marijuana, worse than alcohol? Come on. Death penalty, we do not have one in our state, so he is just standing up for our laws. Why do Christians, a huge majority, feel so threatened about the tree? It is not even really a religious symbol, it is more about gifts and Santa, not the birth of Christ. He did not try to rename the nativity, just a tree. Why can't we share it in the spirit of human unity?

Jim, not only that, but why are a large number of supposed Christians in favor of the death penalty anyway? It's revolting. Go to Texas if you like your government killing people.

The tree is NOT a christian symbol. It comes from a Germanic pagan tradition of bringing greenery into the home during the onset of winter to ensure the continuance of life, AND the garlands that are put upon are representative of the entrails of your enemies vanquished during the previous year.

It was co-opted by the Victorian royalty in Britain in the mid-nineteenth century and brought into British and American culture because at that time the British Royalty was largely German and they wanted to perpetuate their traditions in Great Britain. It perpetuated over the rest of the western world because it became a ~fashionable~ way to celebrate the holiday. There is nothing deeply traditional or christian about it.

Christian symbol indeed...

Paul, The origins of the Christmas Tree is not in question. The CHRISTMAS tree is understood and celebrated as a symbol of the birth of Christ.

The swaschstika wass a symbol of an asian religion among others before it became the symbol of the Nazi party. By your definition, the swaschtika is NOT a symbol of Nazism because it did not begin that way...

So, then you acknowledge all the non-christian and pagan origins of the current incarnation of Christmas? Then what is wrong with calling it a holiday tree? Or calling it anything you want?

Paul. You are a genius. You must be because I agree with everything you have written. Like minds. LOL

I would like to add that from what I have read, the word menorah, is a noun. Just as tree is a noun. If I were to call it a Hannakah Menorah, that would be like Christmas tree. But we never call it that, we call it a menorah because it is a menorah, the hebrew word for candle holder. Would Jews object if we called it the Holiday Menorah? I doubt it. They know which holiday it is.

Joe, so what you're basically saying is that, since you won the *original* War on Christmas against the Pagans and Romans, that it's yours and nobody else has the right to reclaim it as their own as well? That you stole it fair and square and nobody has the right to call it a more generic name, to be more inclusive? Since when was being inclusive and celebrating diversity such an ugly, hideous thing to do? Wake up, people. There are other religions beside your own, privileged super-majority religion.

And the origin of the Christmas Tree is VERY MUCH in question when you say things like, "It should be called what it is...a Christmas Tree."

If you are arguing about something ELSE, you need to state it.

So then, Christians must respect the notions of all. When you decide to call a Christmas tree a holiday tree...Christians must accept and tolerate this but there is no need for you to respect Christians as you rename a revered symbol of their religion.

The symbol is what it is. Everyone certainly has the RIGHT to call the tree whatever they want...it IS disrespectful to Christians to rename their symbol to suit the governor's needs.

And yes, Menorah is the Jewish word for candle holder - still the governor respects the Jewish faith by using the Jewish word while he is speaking English. Is not turn about fair play? Should he not refer to it as the candle holder if tolerance is his aim?

So then, Pagans must respect the notions of Christians. When you decide to call a Yule tree a Christmas tree...Pagans must accept and tolerate this but there is no need for you to respect Pagans as you rename a revered symbol of their religion.

The symbol is what it is. Everyone certainly has the RIGHT to call the tree whatever they want...it IS disrespectful to Pagans to rename their symbol to suit the Christians' needs.

I'd also object to your characterization of the tree as "a revered symbol of [Christian] religion."

The Bible has clearly spoken on the matter in Jeremiah 10:3-4. It clearly says this practice is worthless (or vain depending upon the translation). So according to your own religion, what you are calling a revered symbol is actually completely worthless.

Perhaps you've picked the wrong dog for the fight.

I don't care what YOU call it. I care what the governor calls it. I care that the Governor or the state should respect Christians as much as he respects the members of any other religion.

Yes, the christians renamed an existing religious symbol, and now you're emphatic about no one calling it anything else, that makes perfect sense.

Also, if christians deserve the same amount of respect as everyone else, then the converse must also be true: Everyone else deserves the same amount of respect as christians.

So then, why should christmas deserve a special place of respect above all the other holidays that revolve around midwinter? Perhaps using "holiday" instead of "christmas" makes the government funded practices more inclusive, thereby showing that respect to everyone. Not specifically acknowledging your beliefs is only "disrespectful" if they specifically acknowledge someone else's. In this case they're generally acknowledging them all by calling what has been adopted as a symbol of midwinter by cultures and traditions all over the globe as a "holiday tree".

Where exactly is this lack of respect you imagine you're seeing?

How very Christian of you. I believe the Bible says to love thy neighbor as thyself.

Happy Holidays, Charles!

Peace on earth, good will to men, and all that... you know...? CHRISTIAN values?

Wow, Charles. You are unbelievable. Of course Christmas will be Christmas, so why are you so threatened by non-believers? How insecure can you possibly be? Are you really suggesting one country/one religion? Look at how well that has worked in the Middle East. Oh, right, I forgot, that is the WRONG religion. In other words, not YOUR religion.
As Skwerl says, read the Bill of Rights. It even protects your sorry beliefs.
Happy Holidays to ALL!

Here's a tip: The state is wasting money by putting up Christmas trees in the first place. Want to display your holiday cheer in public? Do it in your yard or at your church. Why the hell are tax dollars even going to a specific religion's holiday celebration, anyway?

I am sure that my Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim and atheist friends will appreciate those words. Everyone, Eugene? Everyone? Why would you wish a non-Christian a Merry Christmas?
Let me wish you a very happy Hannakah. A fantastic Ramadan. And a merry Kwansa, Eugene.
Chafee is governor to everyone, not just Christians. Not just the majority.

And remember to keep Thor in Thursday!

Keep the Woden in Wednesday and the Freyja in Friday

"The feelings and ideals of the majority of Rhode Islanders."? Really. . .have you seen the results of the poll?

Then why did he say..."This year we are going to call it a "HOLIDAY TREE".... I heard him say that....... the truth is....... it is a CHRISTMAS TREE.... for years that is what it was called.........

"Waahh, I'm being persecuted! Waahhh!" These types of Christians never cease to amaze and astound me. They're the types of Christians who will claim that "Merry Christmas" is a dirty phrase, while at the same time moaning and whining that people say "Happy Holidays" to them instead of recognizing their privileged religion's holiday.

There is MORE than one holiday this time of the year. You know that, right? Chafee can call his tree whatever the heck he wants, just as YOU can call YOUR tree whatever the heck you want. Live and let live, and try not to demand special recognition from your government. Nobody can take your religion or beliefs away from you, except yourself.

Any calendar? Let's see, according to the Hebrew calendar December 25, 2011 is actually the 29th day of Kislev, 5772. According to an Islamic calendar its the 29th day of Muharram, 1433. Neither mentions Christmas, by the way. The Bahai calendar has nineteen months, and I find it confusing. And, according to the Mayans, next year is the last year, or so some people claim.

It's a big world, and it defies simple solutions.

So should we rename these holidays and their symbols too? Let's just start calling all religious remebrances some random names and then we can make up different ones each year just to make it more fun.

JTP - The point is that there are a bunch of holidays (both religious and secular) clustered around the end of the year. Saying "Happy Holidays" is just a shortcut - and not an un-traditional one either.

Or would you rather I expend the wind and the 45 minutes it'd take me to say,

"Hey! Have a happy Thanksgiving/Black Friday/Pearl Harbor Day/Advent Day X (where X is any given day in December) /Hanukkah/Solstice/Yule/Kwanzaa/Boxing / Eastern Orthodox Christmas/Egg Nog Day/Feast of the Immaculate Conception/Annual Gift Giving Man Who Lives on the Moon Day/Festivus (for the rest of us!)/Božić/Feast of St Stephen/New Years/Epiphany/Eastern Orthodox Epiphany/Discovery of Haiti Day/Jamhuri Day/Eid il-Burbara Day/St. Clement of Ohrid/Hari Raya Haji/St Nicholas Eve/ (and lastly) Wookie Life Day"?

Pretty sure you'd wanna punch me before I got halfway thru all that (And I wouldn't blame you)

I'd wanna keep it short.

(And yes, this response was meant to be silly)

Here, here! Good for you Tom. We need to be more inclusive. Calling it a Holiday tree includes more people in the season, how can that be divisive, as Bishop Tobin claims.

Actually, it's their JOB to keep God and Christ out of everything (well, everything to do with government anyway), and that is all that's going on here. If you extract the concept of "God" from the rest of what you said, then I agree with you wholeheartedly. The spirit of Christmas is one of joy, love and peace wished for and given to each other - one that we should keep year round and in ALL beliefs and cultures. If we keep it in our hearts and practice it day to day, then it doesn't matter what the symbols of it are called.

No, Carol, they are not taking God out of "everything", only out of government. You are free in our country to practice any religion anywhere you want, as long as the government does not support ONE particular religion. We support religions by allowing them to exist, tax free. We do not discourage them at all. In what universe do you live?
And calling people who do not believe what you believe, "foolish", is not helping the discussion. It is just mean spirited. From what I hear, Jesus was not like that at all.
BTW, just who is the "enemy" that you refer to, that Jesus defeated? My knowledge of scripture is a bit shaky.
May I venture a guess about something else? I will bet you were against the Islamic Community Center built at 51 Park Ave., NYC. Would it help if I gave it the name you most likely know it by, the Ground Zero Mosque. My guess is that the mosque represented the wrong god, in your eyes. Am I right, twice?

BTW, being narrow-minded is hardly a suitable religion. Perhaps the "symbol" could be a very tall and very skinny object. Palm tree? Too close to the "Christmas Tree" and people would be forced by the government to call it a Holiday Tree and that would be just too confusing. Telephone pole? Flag Pole? You can decide Carol and you can name it too. My gift to you. Might I suggest the "pole of intolerance." Just a thought.

No Jim! Don't let the Christians steal the Festivus Pole, too!

Are you an atheist and/or agnostic? Because the funny thing is, atheists tend to know the bible better than most Christians do. ;)

I have to disagree. Trees were used in celebration by pagans long before they were used by Christians. And Since Christmas and the celebration of the winter solstice (along with other assorted celebrations) occur at this time the use of a decorated tree to celebrate the seasons seems appropriate. Quite different than treating a Menora as a Candelabra.

The word "menorah" is Hebrew for "lamp". So they already beat you to it, silly (i.e. EGMike).

I'm guessing you're an atheist, or at least a non-Christian. It's funny how non-Christians tend to know more about their bible than most of them do. Especially true for atheists. We gotta know what we're arguing against, at the very least! ;)

Richard, as I often have heard from other Atheists (Yes I wear the label proudly), the easiest and best way to become an Atheist is to actually read the Bible! Once you actually know what is in it, and how one would have to live to ACTUALLY follow it, ... this is the 21st Century after all! And then you can learn about the truly incredible and ACTUAL history behind things. Like the Solstice Tree. The incredible beauty behind one of the first things about nature that our ancestors recognized, the Solstice (Sun stands still), the "ReBirth of the SUN"! The yearly cycles of our physical existence. With one of the first "celebrations" of humans being to bring a living thing, a TREE into the cave and decorate it as part of that ritual! Tens of thousands of years ago! And we still celebrate it today! Even if it has been hijacked and subjugated to some very recent myth. To turn it from the ReBirth of the SUN, to the Birth of the Son. When it is far more interesting and exciting to celebrate tens of thousand of years of connection to our earliest ancestors!

Richard it was reading, studying, teaching and preaching the bible that made me an atheist, The funny thing is how many people who claim to believe the bible have no clue what it says

And obscene content would be strong vulgarities, (F word, N word, etc) or things that would be rated R and not permitted on broadcast television. Baseless attacks "You're an idiot" "Go to hell, jerk" are also grounds for deletion. But words like "ass" and "damn" are OK as long as they're not used in a baseless personal attack. I hope this clarifies things for people.

One more thing - we can disable flagging specific comments. So don't waste your time.

That's right Laura. Nothing better than an angry mob to FORCE the minority into subjugation by CRAMMING their wishes down everyone else's throat! If enough Christians show up, maybe they can just go back to killing those that disagree? God Bless your efforts!

For the REST of us, we live in a country that is NOT based on mob rule! Where the majority get to FORCE their will on the minority. We live in a SECULAR country who's written law, the Constitution, intentionally starts "WE THE PEOPLE..."!

But perhaps you should also tell your MOB to wear their white hoods as well?

> "but for now..can't we just say "HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO OUR JESUS""

No. No I won't. Why do you ask? You can say it, I won't stop you. But why would I want to say it if I am not a believer? Why would any of the religions that have had some sort of Solstice holiday tradition for centuries before christians started celebrating Christmas want to say it? There was an astronomical SOLSTICE for millennia before modern religions cam along.When mankind came along and saw that there was a day in the middle of the dark and cold months where the days started getting longer and that there was more light than dark, they saw that as a reason to celebrate the impending return of warmth and life to the world.

That your religion came along and decided to co-opt it, does not mean that it was meant to BE ONLY your holiday. It belonged to the rest of the earth LONG before the Catholic Church stole it in an attempt to supplant the pagan religions.

Yay Glenn. Laura is part of a majority that is so insecure that they feel they must force their beliefs on everyone instead of allowing everyone to have their own beliefs. They say that bullies are very insecure as well. They use force to get their way and think little of the weaker minorities. It is not all that different.

Because Baby Jesus smiles every time you use your VISA at Walmart! Christians! Never happy! Some years ago you all were complaining that stores were using your make believe friend's name in vain! That they should stop using Jesus Christ to sell things! To stop shopping at places that EXPLOITED Christ's name for profit! So they changed to "Holiday Greetings"! You got the SPECIAL treatment you DEMANDED! But it obviously is NOT about WHAT is said. Just that you want SPECIAL TREATMENT! And so now you will complain that they are NOT saying Christmas! Until they DO and then next year it will be "Stop using Jesus for Profit!"

All you want is Privileged STATUS!

Lew: RI, like the rest of the Union, has NEVER been a Christian State. There are many christians in it, yes, but that does not make it a Christian State. ALL Governments in the US are SECULAR states. So get off your uninformed high horse.

And Glenn: Oh MAN! YOU ARE CORRECT! I do remember a lot of outcry and complaining when I was a lad, about stores being blasphemous when saying things like, "Merry Christmas"!

So, CHRISTIANS, just what DO you want? Businesses being cynical and using your religion to get holiday sales? Or to FORCE your religion down their throats and make EVERYONE say Merry Christmas?

Also: I'm pretty sure Jesus shoots a kitten every time I kiss my boyfriend under the mistletoe...

Lew, they do not call it a Hannakah Menorah, just a menorah, which is essentially Hebrew for large candle holder. Are you suggesting that we remove Hebrew words and translate them into English? Tree and menorah, as far as I know, are just nouns. Adjectives define the kind of tree or candle holder. A doubt any Jews would complain if we called it a Holiday Menorah.
Glenn, love your smiling baby Jesus analogy. Let's face it, the Christmas tree is just a really pretty place to put all the Christmas loot. One can scarcely suggest the tree has much to do with the new born saviour.
Also, Lew, I am intrigued by your typing style. No caps unless you are referencing Christ, Christian, Christmas. No, not really, you are not even that consistant. Chaffee got a cap, good for you. And four "Christmas" got lower case. Also caps when you are yelling at the rest of us. AND, "et cetera" is etc. Just for future reference.
Have a Merry Christmas Lew! And Happy Holidays to the rest of you, and I am sure you each know which holiday you celebrate and do not need to be reminded of its name.

Paul, you should be ashamed! You and your boyfriend making out under the mistletoe while all those kittens are being shot. Call the ASPCA. Bye, bye Kitty.

Love you even more! Happy Holidays!

Sometimes comments take a few minutes in the system to appear. You're not the first person to report this. If a comment disappears it should come back after a while. Apologies.

Pretty harsh there, Sam

You can call it whatever you want. And Chafee can call his tree whatever he wants. At least he's not using the government as a launching pad for religious beliefs, like Doreen Costa is. Be glad Chafee believes in separation of church and state, much like our founding fathers did, as well as Roger Williams, founder of Rhode Island.

Not another idiot. Dude, read the First Amendment. Read it CAREFULLY. We all have freedom FROM our governments promoting any kind of religious belief, doctrine, or establishment (such as prayer, meaning the National Day of Prayer is unconstitutional, by the way). Where do you get this "freedom OF, not freedom FROM" bull-crap?

Did our founding fathers have Christmas trees? What does that matter? Unless they codified Christmas trees into our founding laws and the Constitution, that point is utterly moot. They could have worshiped the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care, that doesn't mean that we should make that our official religion, ignoring everything the First Amendment of our Constitution says.

That having been said, many of our founding fathers probably did NOT have Christmas trees. Many were Deists, and quite a few of them expressed publicly their disdain of Christianity and churches. Something about lighthouses, I believe.

If I recall correctly, the decorated tree became popular in Victorian times. In George Washington's day they had the Yule log: a large green (as in wet) log that was set afire at the beginning of Yule. When the log was all ash, the holiday season was over.

No they did not. Using the tree as a part of the christian tradition didn't gain large scale acceptance until the 19th century in the UK and US.

As a side note, early christian adopters of the trees were considered heretics, because, as others have pointed out, it was a pagan tradition.

Fortunately, Christmas has become so secularized that when Christians demanded it be made into a federal holiday, it became something ALL of us can benefit from. Dude, just because Christmas is a federal holiday, don't assume that suddenly the government is Christian. Entities can't be Christian, only people can.

If my employer gave us Christmas off with pay, what am I supposed to do, refuse out of principle? For what reason? Because I'm not Christian?

Instead of making stupid arguments like "You should refuse holiday pay!" (which you called "holiday pay" instead of "Christmas pay", by the way), try arguing real facts, like the Constitution and Supreme Court law.

Are you sure that is what Christmas is about?

Yes, David, I am. I don't subscribe to religious fairy tales. Being happy and enjoying good times with my family is what it is about to me. If you want to sit around a praise a fictional character being born in a barn knock yourself out.

Wow... AGAIN someone that does not bother to punctuate, run a spell checker or to capitalize at the start of a sentence! The effect is one long, run-on breathless piece of drivel. You can't even spell your own holiday's name correctly.

So, take a breath, find a spell checker and a grammar guide, and try again, will you? Cuz NO ONE wants to read or try to parse that. K?THXBYE.

BTW - our country's system of government is NOT majority rule. It's a Democratic Republic. BIG difference. Look into it.

When Congress passes a Bill it is by a majority vote sometimes a 2/3rd votes (which is still a majority vote). A Presidential Veto can be overcome by a majority 2/3rd vote. Again majority rules.

WOW! You sure snapped to it on punctuation, let's see if you can do the same about actually learning about just WHAT the system of government is that you so rabidly support yet are so ignorant of.

And yet... the Judicial Branch can overturn any "majority rule" if it is deemed an unfit law. How is that exclusively majority rule? You nattered on about the supreme court, griping that it "makes policy trump law" - it's job is to interpret the law, and declare it valid or invalid as it relates to the Constitution - THAT is it's job. You can call it "making policy" if you want (I'm not at all clear on what you mean by that), but if you reject that, you reject the founding principles of our country. Do you reject the WHOLE judicial branch? Looks like it to me. Either that or you are simply completely ignorant of what our system of government really is - A Democratic Republic.

Don't get me wrong, I love our system of government, but to KNOW it is to love it. If you love it, show you know it. If you have no respect for the Judicial Branch, please, PLEASE find another country to live in.

I would also add; our system of government is a representative democratic republic with checks and balances. Part of those checks and balances are the Executive, Legislative and the Judicial branches, all working in synch AND in tension against each other. Controlling those are The People. "Majority rules" my ass.

Paul
How many of the Supreme Court Justices are Strict Constitutionalists and how many are political hacks placed there by the President(s) Republican or Democrat to work to support policy? They no longer make rulings based on the Constitution; instead it is based on their own philosophical belief system however distorted or incorrect it may be.

Paul how many laws has our Supreme Court struck down in the last 100 years? Checks and balances, great concept, the best concept I agree. I would love to have your faith that the Supreme Court is going to save the day and strike down a law that is unconstitutional. Reality it is not going to happen the justices answer to the powers that be. The majority rule is the reality of the day we are a nation of policy.

I never said that the Supreme court would "Save the day" taxed. I merely emphasized that they are there as a check and balance against mob rule, where you seemed to actually resent their presence. (Hey, maybe you didn't, but your initial post remains fairly incomprehensible, so it's hard for me to tell). If you resent them for a reason other than their mere presence you need to state it, you didn't. Now you seem to have backpedaled and agree with me about their necessity. But you seem to think that me reminding you of their basic function and endorsing it as it was meant to be means that I think there are no flaws in the system. Not so. The supreme court is as now corrupt as any other branch of our government. I can still like the process, while hoping to crack the rust and corrosion from it.

Paul you did not say "save the day" I typed it,as for back peddling I do not remember typing I was riding a bicycle.Mob rule do you mean people in peaceful assembly? Majority rule, President elected by a majority of the Electoral College, Senators and
Representatives elected by the majority of the population in their Respective States,Congress passes Bills and Laws by majority vote (and 2/3rd vote) and Congress by 2/3 vote will override a veto. Check and Balances, Supreme Court by majority decision rule that federal policy ( which by design circumvents constitutional laws) is allowed by law, it is a catch 22. I admire you faith to crack the rust and corrosion ( not sure how you crack corrosion) but really you would need an act of God.

Be tolerant of another persons traditions Christmas is inclusive to any belief or none belief that wishes to celebrate the holiday or not. Call them as you see them it is a Christmas tree.Best wishes

Sigh… I never said that you said that I said "save the day"(really? Are we down to this??) What I did in the post before you is called QUOTING YOU…

Ohhhh… I get it - “Said” VS “typed”- Don’t quit your day job.

In addition to majority votes we also have checks and balances against the majority of the people deciding what the fate of a minority should be. If we were a nation that operates solely by majority vote, things like racism would very probably be legal and institutionalized across the US (and in fact racism was JUST that, until the Civil Rights movement). There are things in place in this Government that were designed at its inception to protect the minority from the “tyranny of the masses.” (look the phrase up). That’s all I’m saying.

As for the rest, thou doth protest too much methinks. You misstated your premise, you’ve cleared it up, now suck it up and move on.

Revisiting this: “Paul you did not say "save the day" I typed it,”

I know that, typed. But what you did with that entire statement was inaccurately try to encapsulate what I said so you could attack it. It’s called creating a strawman.

HERE is what you said: “I would love to have your faith that the Supreme Court is going to save the day and strike down a law that is unconstitutional.” It in no way represents what I said.

What are you replying to? Please, PLEASE learn how to make with the clicky on the proper button to reply to the proper person's proper response. It's NOT that difficult and not doing so makes you look all the more hapless and foolish in addition to your punctuation and spelling ignorance.

Thank God for perfect people.

Apology accepted!

Dawn D: Here's a level I rarely stoop to: attacking your reading comprehension skills. It's well deserved here, because you have taken a carefully worded, considerately ~qualified~ statement from wiki and interpreted it so that it apples universally: "... others explicitly distinguish between the two[5][6] or identify the Yule tree with an undecorated evergreen tree."

What do you think "others" means? Hint: it in NO WAY means everybody. So your implication is a lie, or incompetent reading comprehension. Which is it? Stop stamping your feet like a child and learn to read and tell the truth.

But if I don't want to call it a Chrstimas tree because I hate how evil Christianity is and the appalling stuff that it does to people, please lovely Dawn, am I allowed to call it a holiday tree? Please? Or are you going to force us all to call it a Christmas tree?

Because, you see, this is what this is all about. It's about Christians feeling like victims - while they are anything but of course (makes it them all feel good to indulge in such tribal academic laziness though) - while trying to force everyone else to worship their silly bronze age myths.

I see it like this: we couldn't care what you call your tree. We just strongly object to being told by folks who demonstrate their idiocy by beliefs in the papably false (never mind immoral), what we call a tree.

I think I'm going to call it a Mohammed tree. How's that? Am I banned?

Dawn, Dawn, Dawn... incoherent screeching will not help your cause, no matter how many exclamation points you put at the end. Take a breath, calm down, THINK, and then try to explain your point. Why do you think the phrase "... others explicitly distinguish between the two[5][6] or identify the Yule tree with an undecorated evergreen tree," must mean that EVERYONE sees it that way, when not everyone does (obviously).

You don't see places selling "Yule Trees", do you? You don't see "Yule Tree" farms where people can come and cut down their own "Yule Tree," do you? Well...? DO YOU? When's the last time you heard people call it a "Yule Tree" before they decorated and ONLY then call it a "Christmas Tree" ? Well...? When???

OBVIOUSLY your reading of the wiki article is dead wrong. Think with your brain, not your adrenaline glad. And next time you want to avoid being factually pummeled when you get caught in a lie, don't give your opponents references that they can follow up on.

JimmyBoy
Yes they did, they wanted to give everyone the FREEDOM to express their religion in their own way without government interference.

Rhode Island was formed with the idea of religious freedom for non Christians as well. The first synagogue in the country is in Newport for a reason. And don't forget that Roger Williams believed in freedom of conscience even for the entirely not Christian Native Americans. The idea that religious freedom pertains only to Christians is simply not correct, now or ever in this state's history.

your points here are valid and I appreciate your insight.

But what I have an issue w/ is the recent need for everyone to have to "change" the names of things that have been around forever that haven't been an issue for decades if not centuries & then all of a sudden we are "inconsiderate" because we are just going with time honored traditions. That is what I mean about PC... I shouldn't be expected to say Happy Holidays to someone just because someone somewhere thinks its "better" to say that than Merry Christmas..JUST IN CASE you might offend someone. When I hear Merry Christmas I don't hear YAY JESUS... and if someone says Happy Chanukah I don't hear YAY MOSES... I simply hear someone's warm wishes of happiness during a time of year filled with family and love- a niceness to counteract the other 11 months of Hell we seem to face. So I don't see why we should need to change the names of anything.

You're right in saying that people should be "allowed" to call the tree a Holiday Tree, but why change the name to it officially, or more so, why even bring it up? If it's not as much of a big deal as people seem to make it out to be, why are we spending so much time focused on it?

The PC thing also pertains to other things like having "God" on our money/in our pledge of allegiance. It's a time honored tradition, if you don't like it don't read it or say it. I don't know.. maybe it should just be called moot and we should move on with our lives! Merry Christmas.

The aetheists have srewed around with the surveys of other religious discussions on the Patch. It seems that you can vote many times and it is obvious that they are sitting around pushing the vote button all day long just to give the false impression that they hold the majority viewpoint. It's really sad that they feel the need to deceive us just to try to prove their point. The Patch should really do something about this.

Errrr Joe...it's called Pahryngulation. Look it up. I'd be very surprised if you could vote more than once.

It's very sad when people make uninformed statements in public, accusing those they disagree with of deception. Individuals should really taken themselve sin hand on this.

WAAAHHHH!!! The unscientific, cheapo, free bot pole has been messed with!! Wahhhh!!! Joe, we went thru this on another thread. The poll itself SAYS it's unscientific. It's a prepackaged bot, that the Patch VERY likely gets for free or as part of a bundle - such things are notoriously poorly designed, because, welll... they're freeware. They just DROP it into their forums. If you want something that functions better, you need to spend a little money. Do YOU want to start paying to use the Patch, just so you can have properly working "unscientific" poles?

Wow. You behave with a greater sense of self entitlement far worse than any liberal I;ve seen you complain about and mischaracterize.

Also, the poll has been "pharyngulated" by thousands of people from all over the country. Yes, the rest of the nation is watching us, and seeing people like you as being the typical Rhode Islander. And they are laughing at our expense because of people like you. Thanks, ya podunk chowdah head.

Why do atheists seem so angry all of the time?

Joe: Your question was already answered. When you're marginalized as a group, when Tea Partiers are the only group less trusted than you, when people would vote for a Muslim president over an atheist one, when using logic and reason instead of blind faith and credulity get us called crap like "militant" (is the keyboard my weapon?), yeah you're damn right we're angry. When religion gets shoved down our throats on a daily basis (not here, but in other ways, like creationism trying to nudge its way into the public schools all across the country), we tend to get sick and tired of it rather quickly. Pardon us for not being polite about being marginalized.

PT 1

> JTP: "Why are atheists so intolerant of religion and believers?"
Why do Christians (and a large majority of Americans) rate Atheists as being equivalent to rapists?

> JTP: "Why are atheists so mean?"
Why do you think that disagreeing with you equates to "mean"? What are you so insecure about?

> JTP: "Why do atheists feel that they must defile religion and insult believers?"
Why does disagreement with you and wanting you to stop pushing your religion into the public square equate to defiling? What makes you think that your religion is above defiling? Especially when your religion is usually the first to insult, defile and persecute people?

> JTP: "Why do they use such vile and disrepectful language when discussing faith in God?"
What makes you think you never have used such language? I've seen you do it on other threads. Hypocrite.

> JTP: "Why do they feel such a need to belittle people of faith?"
Why do you keep asking what is basically the same question? Over and over again?

> JTP: "Why do atheists think that they are morally and intellectually superior to people of faith?"
We're not. We never said we were. We're just generally not hypocrites, like you, JTP.

PT 2

> JTP: "Why do aetheists feel that unless God revealed Himself to them personally and granted all of their wishes, then that is proof that He does not exist?"
Why do so many Christians claim EXACTLY that? That God HAS revealed himself to them personally. Many right here on the Cranston Patch! Why all of a sudden is it an absurd claim for you? Because you say so? Hypocrite.

> JTP: "Why do atheists think themselves so self important that their pseudo intellectual logic provides enough proof that God does not exist?"
Oh Joe.... you wouldn't know psuedo or REAL logic if it smacked you in the face. The sad thing is you think that your way of thinking is logical, when it's obviously fraught with tons of major logical fallacies and bigoted prejudices.

> JTP: "Why do atheists equate faith to ignorance?"
Because faith, like trust, must be earned. They are very much the same thing. If you ask me to believe something absurd, based on no evidence, why would I? Seriously Joe, you CAN fly without parachute, balloon or wings. All you need to do is have faith. You CAN fly if you believe strongly enough. Now go jump off a cliff. See what I mean?

> JTP: "Why do atheists lack Faith?"
Because dogmatic, mindless spouting of holier than thou rubbish is a big turn off.

Now I'm not a physicist. But if you are actually interested in learning, perhaps you should read any of Stephen Hawking's books. I'm sure he answers that question. Or points out how it's a strawman.

What makes you think "God did it" is a valid answer? If you impose that on EVERY unanswered question we have about the universe, then you curtail all curiosity and embrace living in the dark.

SCIENCE!!!!!! Electro-chemical impulses activating nerves through kinase stimulation that moves a muscle cell to contract! Gargantuan waves of quantum energy pulsating throughout the entire universe at any given time due to the vibration of every atom down to their protons, neutron, electrons, quarks and more which we haven't discovered! Why does it make more sense to you that some "God" just put it all here instead of the notion that science is a complex, beautiful thing that we don't have the mental capacity to fully grasp just yet. Just because WE can't explain everything does not mean we should just assume "God did it." Now THAT is ignorant.

Well, first of all the question's been answered. Twice.

Second, honestly...? I think he's still too busy laughing at you...

Sorry, Nunya, my comment was not directed at you, it was directed at John R Dionne. My apologies if I was not clear (and looking back, I wasn't). Your answer was just fine.

And yes, I laughed at John's question for a full ten minutes! It took me back to my days of arguing with creationists.

Sorry, English first, I thought you were disagreeing with the Governor on these issues. It is more a matter of priorities. Jobs are certainly very important. I misunderstood your point of view.
Been away for a few days and I cannot believe the number of new posts on this topic when I signed in just now.
Have a good night and rest of the week. A wonderful Christmas and Holiday season too.

Again, read the First Amendment. Read the various speeches and writings of the founding fathers, many of which espouse the virtues of separation of church and state, of having religious beliefs be a matter of conscience, between "Man and his God" (between people and their conscience, basically), and that government should stay far away from endorsing any religious belief over another. Separating church and state is the best, most logical, most efficient way to ensure that everybody gets equal footing in religious freedom; government is also prevented from appearaing as though one religion is better than another, one Christian sect more superior to another, one belief greater than another.

When somebody's great-great-grandparents went to school, slavery was legal. When my grandparents went to school, segregation was legal in the south. Just because it happened and was a tradition, doesn't make it right. In the past, people were largely ignorant of separation of church and state, mostly because there was an even bigger majority that there is today of Christians, which made it easier to enforce mob rule and mentality, and force religion down the throats of over. That didn't make it any more legal.
(cont...)

(cont'd)
It's the same with having God on our currency, in our pledge (added in the 50s), in our national motto (also enacted into law in the 50s), or having a National Day of Prayer. They are all unconstitutional (except maybe the pledge, but even that's forced onto children illegally in some areas). The only reason they still exist is because there are loopholes and technicalities that prevent anybody from successfully challenging them.

And our laws were based on a god? Really? So driving laws were based on biblical stories? Maybe how Moses couldn't make a turn on a camel without signalling first? What about drunk driving laws? Drug laws? Certainly not rape laws! Rape is a common practice in the bible, and the only laws in the bible pertain to having to marry your rapist if you're a woman. Also, if you're a woman and your husband gets into a fight, you can't attack the other man by grabbing his testicles, or your hand will be cut off. Which American laws are based off of that?

Or did you only mean the Ten Commandments (of which there are 603 additional ones that Christians conveniently ignore)?

Why do you hate America John? The Constitution is document that is all inclusive. All people of all faiths and non-faiths fall under the constitution. Are you telling me that I don't have the same rights as you do John? Why is that? Why do you only wish Christians to be allowed the protections under the constitution? Seriously go READ the document and stop lying! NOOO morals! LOL Believe in my God or burn in hell forever. LOL you teach that to children for crying out loud! By ALL measures of well-being and goodness this country has ONLY become more moral the less religious it as come! Sorry John the FACTS don't lie!

Again, yet more straw-men arguments. Who is "offended en masse" by the term Christmas tree? I know I'm not. Many left-leaning people I know call it a Christmas tree, but the difference between them and the right-wing nut-jobs is that we're not offended by "Happy Holidays" either, nor do we care what the governor calls his tree. If it bothers you so much, perhaps you need to take a good, hard look at why it bothers you. You need to realize that nobody can take away your traditions or beliefs except YOU. Where we see somebody being tolerant and inclusive, you see a demon trying to take away your precious traditions and beliefs. That's not the case, and you really need to stop demonizing a man who's really not doing anything wrong. At least he's not using the government as a pedestal for religious beliefs, something Rhode Island was founded upon: separation of church and state.

Why do you make up your own argument and then argue against it? That is extremely dishonest.

Well Richard, It is not really the "governor's tree", it is the citizens tree.
The reason that it strikes a nerve is because I cannot understand why the left has to make an issue out of it in the first place. I am not a "right-wing nut job" as you so eloquently phrased it, nor am I a religious man.

Separation of Church and state has nothing to do with it, please educate yourself on the topic in detail if you are going to attempt to participate in intelligent debate.

A Christmas tree is not a religious symbol and even if it was, it still would not fall under the blanket of Church and State.

The separation of Church and state was never intended to remove religious references from the public. Its intention was to prevent the state from endorsing, funding and promoting any particular religion.

The "left" is making an issue out of this? Sorry, but it seems to me that it's only conservative Christians who are making a big to-do about nothing here. As a liberal atheist, I couldn't care less what the governor calls the tree in the public square, even if he called it a Christmas tree, I have better things to worry about. What bothers me is when people misrepresent the Constitution, lie about what's going on, or misunderstand basic facts.

You and I agree on what the Constitution says, so I don't see why there's an argument there. Perhaps you need to re-read my comment above.

Also, I didn't call YOU a right-wing nut-job. Please, no straw-men arguments here, okay?

Just make it so that people can't vote twice with the same username. It's not rocket science. And you will have more accurate results.

That's already the case, CR. I could only vote once, so it's already set that way. It's just that this story got posted on at least two very popular atheist blogs, and the users decided to vote on the poll as well.

Ahhh that explains it..... We are being invaded by atheists!!!!!!

Scary.......

PT 1

Thank you for clearing that up Mark. And I applaud the patch for emphasizing that these are not scientific. Web polls are almost never scientific - by definition, it's difficult to introduce over the anonymity of the internet the kinds of controls and checks and balances that you'd need for a truly scientific poll. Even if you're able to fully prevent a person from taking a poll a second time on one PC, there is nothing that enables you to prevent them taking that poll a 2nd time on another PC elsewhere. And there is NOTHING to prevent thousands of unique users coming in and crash a poll.

And not all developers test in all the available browsers, just the most commonly used ones. As a former developer, and out of curiosity, I've tested the polls here on Cranston Patch with at least 3 browsers (IE, Firefox and Chrome), and found that with some browsers you CAN reload a page and take the polls again. Chrome is the most consistent offender here - every time I come to this thread, the poll is available to take again. Firefox is inconsistent, but I never explored the details of when it allows or disallows the polls. IE seems consistent, but I don't use it much, so I was not thorough with that one either.

Pt 2

This is why I laugh so hard when people here complain that the poll is rigged or been tampered with. Oddly they only seem to complain about it when they results are contrary to their opinion. It's not a Gallop or Straw poll, people! It's an internet poll: they're perfunctory, they're imperfect, they're free to the users, they're unscientific, and are largely intended to spark conversation (as you so delightfully pointed out, Mark).

I would be all for letting the poll software remain as it is.

AND A HAPPY RAMAMDAN AND A WONDERFUL WINTER SOLSTICE TO YOU TOO.....

Yeah, because ALL CAPS makes me right. *rolls eyes*

Please find me one single mention of a god in our constitution. You like John Adams do you LOL
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man"- Thomas
Jefferson

"There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."- Thomas Jefferson

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."- Ben Franklin

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it."- Ben Franklin

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in
it"- John Adams

"The New Testament, they tell us, is founded upon the prophecies of the Old; if so, it must follow the fate of its foundation.'- Thomas Paine

"It is the fable of Jesus Christ, as told in the New Testament, and the wild and visionary doctrine raised thereon, against which I contend. The story, taking it as it is told, is blasphemously obscene.”- Thomas Paine

"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession."- Abraham Lincoln

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."- James Madison

Shall I go on?

You have yet to explain HOW EXACTLY our laws are "deeply steeped" with Christian-Judeo principles, or the Constitution for that matter. Where is the bible does it say that "no person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the age of twenty five years, and been seven years a citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen"? Where in the "good book" does it say that the government should be composed of three branches that act as balances to each other? Where in the bible does it say that citizens have the right to worship whatever religion they choose, and that the government can't make any laws regarding religious practices and beliefs?

Really, next time you stumble across a transcript of the Constitution, try actually READING it for once.

Our law are based upon what is good for society, not anything based on the bible. "Don't kill people" isn't something that originated with Christianity; it pre-dates any religion by a long shot. Same goes for any other law that you want to pretend is about legislating morality.

==You have yet to explain HOW EXACTLY our laws are "deeply steeped" with Christian-Judeo principles, or the Constitution for that matter. Where is the bible does it say that "no person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the age of twenty five years, and been seven years a citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen"?== etc. with several more similarly snarky comments.

Any first year Western Civ student can tell you that Western Civilization is an amalgam of the Judeo-Christian system of morals and ethics and a government-legal system based on Graeco-Roman foundations. That simply can not be denied.
And it has, on balance, worked very well, if we assume that the purpose of religion is to uplift a culture and improve the lot of a civilization. What countries provide the best quality of life/stable government/security and opportunities of 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?'
Of the top 20, I would guess about 17 are based on the Judeo-Christian/Graeco-Roman model. Indeed, Japan is the only exception that comes to mind offhand.

All you're doing, Tom, is making claims without any real evidence to back them up. "Ask any Western Civ student." Why don't you, then come back to us with the statistics to back up your claims? "That simply cannot be denied." Either side can say "my claims can't be denied", yet here I am, denying them. So much for that one, eh?

"Of the top 20, I would guess..." And that's your problem right there. No research, no exact figures, no hard evidence. Just guesswork. Again, you make a claim, you provide the evidence to back it up.

Dude, this was answered already. We're not mean, you only think we're being mean because we don't want to follow your beliefs and we dare question them. And angry? Perhaps, but only because we're constantly having God and Christianity shoved down our throats, sometimes by our own government. Please try not to ask straw-man questions next time.

If you're responding to me, you could at least try to keep it in this thread by continuing to use the Reply button on your post. Otherwise... criticism is not being mean. Insults are, sure, but who am I insulting? Only YOU perceive certain things as insults, when they're not intended to be. And defile? How so? Ridicule? Silly beliefs deserve ridicule, especially when those beliefs inform actions and cause, for example, people to want to introduce Creationism into public schools as an "alternative" to evolution. It's crap like that that I'm against, whole-heartedly. And if I ridicule your beliefs, then so be it. I ridicule anybody who believes that any of the stuff in their bible is literally true.

Try again.

Richard, I didn't mean you, you boob.
Don't be so touchy.......

Well it's hard to tell who you're responding to if you post a regular comment instead of a reply.

But, you see, our morals are different. You might think, for example, it's immoral to do something, while I think it's perfectly fine. When it's codified into law, the outlawing/allowing of such an act is determined by whether allowing it would do more harm than good, or outlawing it would do more harm than good.

It's basic logic. Morality differs from person to person. What is considered good for the greater good of society (or detrimental toward the greater good) can be considered universal.

You have yet to prove that morality comes from Christianity or the bible. Just saying our founding fathers were Christians isn't enough, because that simply isn't TRUE. Many of them were Deists, or outright rejected Christianity, and quite publicly I might add.

(1) Yes, it sucks to see "God" on currency. Because once it passed into law, the First Amendment was completely ignored & trampled upon. It's a spit in the face to *American citizens* who do not pray to, nor believe in, the same god that many Christians in the majority do.

(2) Yes, that sucks as well. Prayer has no place in a government meeting, which is barred from endorsing any religion or religious belief whatsoever. It happens everyday, and is *challenged* nearly every single time. And that challenge is usually successful.

(3) "One Nation Under God" was added in 1954 to our Pledge during the abomination that was the McCarthy era. It was put in (much like it was shoved onto our paper currency at the same time) to show publicly (and quite illegally, I might add) that we are a nation of God, unlike those heathen, godless Communists who were scaring us so much at the time. Of course, politicians were in too much of a panic to see the fact that it was illegal, nor was anyone else brave enough to step forward and challenge it, lest they be seen as a Communist and persecuted for that accusation. It was a different time, then.

(4) "God Bless America" doesn't bother me in the least. I'll give you one good guess as to why. Because it's not our official anthem, nor was it passed into law, nor required by such. It's just a song. Nothing illegal going on there.

(5) As for public officials taking oath, they CHOOSE to swear to God. And if it's forced, guess what? ILLEGAL.

Glad I could educate you, by the way. You seem to have this mistaken impression that atheists hate the mere mention of god in all forms, no matter what. That is simply not the case. We hate the mere mention of god, religion, religious beliefs, of the endorsement of any of the preceding, by a government, government entity, or entity representing the government in any way, shape, or form. Because it's ILLEGAL, you see. Anything that directly violates the Constitution is illegal, even if it's passed into law.

Finally, something we can agree upon.

I agree. Maybe for different reasons, but I agree.

I agree, too. The religious bigotry is REALLY on glaring, stark display here in all it's ugly, inchoate glory. The Prayer Mural thread was NOTHING compared to this.

And it's great that you can apparently psychically tell who's posts were deleted and which side of the argument they were on. Good on ya! Go psychic powers!

PR commented-*And it's great that you can apparently psychically tell who's posts were deleted and which side of the argument they were on. Good on ya! Go psychic powers!*

Did I miss the part where I stated, or hinted, or in any way suggested, 'which side of the argument' the deleted posts were from?

Oh yah, you're all innocence, purity and light! Oh please. It's OBVIOUS who you meant. Don't play stupid. And DON'T accuse me of making baseless assumptions when your own personal attitudes are so flagrantly on display. You needn't have directly said it. Your own history and opinions here scream it. JPT coming to your side also makes it abundantly clear WHO you mean. Don't be a child, suck it up and pull your hand out of the cookie jar - we can still see it in there and your face is covered with cookie crumbs.

But then... I could just be bitter. When so many polls show that most Americans think that atheists have no morals, ethics or scruples, and are no better than rapists or pedophiles. I haven't got any reason at all for making equally baseless assumptions about so called REAL 'Murkins now have i? Nope. None at all. (That was sarcasm in case you missed it)

i'm sorry that it throws you into such a white-hot rage, (as most things seem to), when someone does not share your dichotomy of dividing everyone into two camps - those who agree with you 100%, and enemies whom you hate with every fiber.
Frankly, most rational people do not think that way.
My comment was just an innocent comment- if people are going to scream curses at each other over what to name the Christmas tree, what hope do we have for anything that matters?
Unless we develop a little more 'we're all in this together' and a little less 'us versus them', there is no light at the end of the tunnel for our downward spiral.

Again, thou doth protest TOO much.

Your imaginary god can't help you now! Mwahahahahahaa!

Happy Solstice!

Yvette, he has not changed the name of the tree. He's not forcing anyone to call it anything. He's calling it a "Holiday Tree" just like EVERY RI Governor has done for at least the past 20 years (probably longer). He has not introduced any kind of motion, edict, pronouncement or ANY kind of legislation to do so. UNLIKE what Teabagger Doreen Costa did as her very FIRST act as an elected official - and after promising that she would not do trivial crap like that - she introduced legislation to require that the tree officially called a Christmas tree - actually a CLEAR violation of the establishment clause.

It's people like you that speak from their fear, ignorance and their bigotry that are making this state a NATIONAL EMBARRASSMENT on this and other issues.

Oh, you're welcome. When you have a controversy as silly as this, it demands an equally silly response (i.e. the take-over of the poll). But thank you for attempting to marginalize us, by calling us "very few", "very militant" (what, is the keyboard our weapon now?), "extremist", etc. I'm sorry, but bombing an abortion clinic is extremist. Cutting off the hands of a thief because your religion demands it is extremist. Imprisoning a rape victim because she is now impure is extremist. Voting on a poll and expressing our views, as well as arguing against patently false claims? Sorry, that's not extremist in the least. I'm sorry if you're offended that there are atheists that exist in the world who refuse to lie down and be walked all over, and who refuse to allow lies to be told and misinformation to be spread without saying something about it. But that's who we are.

Call us militant, but by doing so you reduce the severity of genuinely militant acts. Call us extremist, but you diminish the impact of TRUE extremists who actually cause death and destruction.

The only reason why Christianity is so widespread is because things like the Inquisition and the Crusades forcefully converted non-Christians. Your religion spread like a disease, like cockroaches in the light, forcing all who stood in its way to convert, or die.

So don't tell ME about militant acts, or extremism. Your beliefs exist solely because of extremists and militant acts.

Really Joe, why is does it seem so dishonest to you that thousands of people come and take a poll on a website that wasn’t designed to restrict them from doing so? Especially where it says in big letters next to the poll “NOT A SCIENTIFIC POLL”? And most especially where one of the forum moderators has said that the polls are really there just to spark conversation?

Why are you so hung up on this?? We’ve discussed it before. Let it go.

There IS no such thing as a scientific or accurate or fair poll on pretty much ALL internet forums like this. And poll-crashing is hardly the sole purview of Atheists or the Left. I’ve seen it happen on forums all over the spectrum. And worse. Religious right groups actually organize their readers to go to forums of opposing points of view and post pre-canned responses in order to make it seem that opinion on a forum is in agreement with them. So poll-crashing and “Pharyngulation” are NOTHING compared with how the right behaves on the internet.

Stop being an ignorant child and grow up.

Ha ha ha, Joe. How ridiculous. Like people have nothing better to do then infiltrate the poll here on The Patch to make it look like the Atheists outnumber the Christians. I assure you only a religious nut-job would do something so idiotic. If the Atheists opinions ARE in fact outnumbering the religious opinions then I applaud the fact that common sense and logic might finally be catching on.

Oh Joe! You continue to show your ignorance and hypocrisy. And you yet again pull facts out of your um… holiday tree stand. The most perfunctory Google search turns up many worldwide figures that sharply disagree with you made up 2%

PZ Meyers encapsulates it pretty well: “I’ll tell you what. If you want to call it a Christmas tree, I won’t complain. If you want to call it a Holiday tree, I won’t complain. I’ll only complain if you tell me or anyone else that they must use your official terminology, because you don’t get to impose your traditions on anyone else.”

What part of this don’t you agree with?

The Governor merely called it a “Holiday Tree” in a press release. As EVERY OTHER RI Governor has done for a long LONG time. It was not any form of resolution or legislation – binding or non-binding. He stood by what he said when called on it. What is your problem with that?? NO ONE is forcing you to call it a holiday tree. Get the heck OVER it man!

Returning to your 2% remark – specifically America - there ARE many more American Atheists than a mere 2% - we are the fastest growing demographic in the country right now. If your old-world, closed-minded, tiny little provincial RI mindset cannot wrap itself around that… well… the dinosaurs went THAT way mister. Please close the door on your way out.

PZ Meyers is right – it IS a stupid little whiney poll. Because of all the whining that people here have done over NOTHING.

Thanks Joe I have not seen that one yet, I loved it especially where PZ Myers says "I’ll tell you what. If you want to call it a Christmas tree, I won’t complain. If you want to call it a Holiday tree, I won’t complain. I’ll only complain if you tell me or anyone else that they must use your official terminology, because you don’t get to impose your traditions on anyone else."

You seem to forget that telling everyone else that they must use Christian official terminology, imposing Christian traditions on everyone else is exactly what Costa tried to do with her resolution

An interesting point...

But, no, Christians have not been the only ones in history to use a tree to celebrate holidays. Pagans have long done it, the Romans did. And the modern incarnation of the tree comes from a Germanic Pagan tradition of bringing greenery indoors at wintertime to keep vigil until the return of the light/sun.

I submit that we CAN get along as long as some of us can stop acting persecuted just because someone casually calls a tree a 'plant.' Both words are correct descriptors, the latter is just more general than the former. The same for the words "Christmas Tree" and "Holiday Tree."

It's hardly blasphemy.

No laws have been passed to require that it be called one or the other.

People NEED to get over it.

I didn't miss that point I just disagree. I have no religious affiliation whatsoever but I still celebrate Christmas with my family. Like I posted earlier, to me and my family Christmas is a time to get together and celebrate good times and our love for one another. I don't have to sit around and praise Jesus to be allowed to decorate festively. Christmas/Holiday/Whatever trees are pretty and add to the ambiance of our home during a celibratory time. I truly don't care what you call it I just dislike religious freaks trying to cram their beliefs down my throat. I was raised Catholic, I have read the bible cover to cover several times, I went to Catholic schools and made my confirmation like a good Catholic. Based on all I learned I just don't buy it!!!

for Paul and Nunya,

First of all, Paul, yeah...I agree. We should all calm down about this! =)

If you will re-read my post more carefully, Paul, you'll find that I already mentioned that. Yes, a holiday tree includes some neo-pagans --that is, mainly Caucasians following a Germanic tradition. It doesn't do much for, say, an African Animist, who might even feel sad that a tree has been cut down for decoration.
A lot of people, when they say "pagan", don't realize that they also mean "European."

And Nunya, I'm not arguing *against* calling it a holiday tree, I'm fine with that.
But, it's not an inclusive move.
I'm only saying that a "holiday tree" is silly as an inclusive move because it doesn't include anyone4 who isn't already using a Christmas or Yule tree.
Your holiday and mine probably look a lot alike
Family gathering, exchanging gifts, end of December, with a tree and maybe santa...a holiday tree only includes you because you are celebrating a secularized Christmas. (and I'm not attacking you-- for be it from me, dear, to tell you what holidays to celebrate and how to celebrate them!)
But f you were a real minority-- say among RI's south east Asian Buddhist population, the name change would do nothing, lol.
It would look like what it is-- the white majority tinkering with the name of their holiday's most famous ornament.
Try telling a Moslem that a Christmas tree has nothing to do with Christianity, lol.
Renaming it a holiday tree does nothing to include our Moslem population, our Jews, our Buddhists, our Jehovah's Witnesses, our Sikhs...
They could respond that your holiday tree is cramming your culture and traditions down their throats, lol!

No, it's not inclusive. But the renaming does one thing.
ANY Christmas tree still has strong associations with religious tradition. There are grounds, even in those terms, for removing it from government property.

All this name-change really does
is maybe make some non-religious and neo-pagans feel more included,
and block determined Secularists from trying remove the tree from the Statehouse with a lawsuit.

It's actually defending the tradition of having a public Christmas tree there.

Can you PLEASE respond to the proper comment, rather than creating your own floating comment where no one can tell what you're responding too??

And you wonder why people think you are exactly what you just called... whoever it was you are calling that...?

Insulting? YOU keep calling people "idiot" and "boob"!!

For the tenth time: HYPOCRITE!!

Yeah right, YOU'VE drawn us out. YOU ALONE. Because no one else reads the forums or thinks to comment until you speak. Delusional twaddle.

Well, if we're "nothing" why are you raving on so?

Grow up, it's just a tree. If THAT is destroying your faith, then maybe there is something WRONG with your faith?

Stop acting like a feces flinging ape, Joe.

Joe, seriously, you sound like a big baby. No one really cares what you believe. We are not trying to destroy your faith we just choose not to live in fantasy land with you. Someone who chooses to believe fairly tales over science and logic seems pretty silly and childish to me. Wouldn't your GOD want you to use the brain he supposedly gave you? Calling people who disagree with you beliefs nothing? Sounds similar to Hitler's view on the Jews. Remember how that turned out?

Our CHRISTmas has been here for centuries and it's never hurt anyone. We don't push it down anyones throats, etc. I respect ALL beliefs. If you don't like our Christmas tree, ignore it. If you don't like a prayer that's been in our schools for years, don't read it. LEAVE US ALONE AND WE'LL BE HAPPY!! WE WOULD NEVER TRY TO CHANGE YOUR BELIEFS!!! I will be at the statehouse singing, "Oh Christmas Tree" tomorrow. Who would like to join us?

For someone attempting to pedestal the faithful, you're certainly presenting a counter-intuitive argument. You, sir, present yourself to be intolerant, rude, insulting, and insignificant yourself. Why not allow others to believe or not to as they see fit?

I did look it up. Numerous sites present the statistic of 2% atheists in the world.

And as I said, Let us not mistake the number of militant atheist remarks on this blog for anything other than an insignificant minority of people lodging a transparent effort to hijack this blog.

Janus, surely you are able to have a more intelligent, tolerant view--
people are complicated, and respond based on our past experiences.

There are bigoted Christians, yes.
But there are many who aren't.
Some slave owners tried to use the Bible to defend their position,
but many of the most prominent Abolitionists, including some who died for their beliefs, were ardent Christians.
and the Civil Rights movement you mention was led by a Christian preacher who was inspired by a Hindu.

Some groups of very loud Christians today are bigoted, hypocritical, and poor reps for Jesus.
But many are quietly working away every day to do what we can for mankind, and trying our best to be tolerant, kind: better than the people we were yesterday and the day before.

And it's important to note that, just as you have your back up because you've met many intolerant Christians (many of them online, I'm sure...can't you see that Joe is just a troll who likes to get anyone angry? Check his profile page for past posts)
many Christians, too, are automatically on the defense when they run into Atheists because they have encountered very insulting, very intolerant examples: not people who say, "I want my rights", but people who say, "you are stupid, I hate you!"
We, too, meet nasty people online, and in our daily lives. Madalyn O'Hair was hardly a kind, tolerant person. When her son chose to become a Baptist, she disowned him for life :*(
ANY set of beliefs can injure and oppress.

LM,

You project for yourself into my posts what is not there. It’s false inference. If you read my posts carefully you’ll see that I do not allege that ALL Xtians are bigots, and I try to be very precise in what I say. Ordinarily I’m careful to use modifiers such as “some” and I try to avoid saying that ALL Xtians behave in extreme ways, because obviously, as you note, they don’t (aside from maintaining their core belief in a non-existent being). And I have sufficient experience with JTP in the Patch to understand his irrational propaganda, as you indicate you may also understand. Propaganda has nonetheless to be refuted lest other more reasonable people get inadvertently infected.

To support one of the points you are making, for instance, it remains true still, as it has always been, that many Xtians support separation of church and state. They understand the purpose and the need, as the founders did. Few of these people post comments in the Patch, though. These threads tend to attract the absolute-majority-rule-god says-I’m-right folks, who tend towards intolerance and falsehoods. Forceful opposition with facts is one way to oppose these people.

Yes, many Xtians work for positive change in the world instead of just propagandizing for bronze-age myths, but I rarely see any of them refuting Xtian nonsense in these threads. You’re invited to engage in that refutation and to support facts in opposition to dogma.

Given LJs analogy of those who want to call a Christmas tree a Christmas tree to Goebbels, boxcars, and "showers",perhaps it's time to invoke Godwin's Law.

Does commenting ever close on patch? Is there a time limit?
This really is a mess =/

Sadly, this thread will not end until the next related one opens up, so that those who apparently have a minimum daily choleric requirement of 1500 words of venom and hypocrisy can find some other outlet for their need.

John,

Governor Chaffee may have attracted the 4% athiest vote for the next election.

But he has alienated the 87.5% Christians in Rhode Island.

Usually, Ron, these polls are just kind for fun.
Anyone can vote and vote and vote....note the statement at the bottom that "this is not a scientific poll". It's not a waste of web space, but it's not something that should be taken seriously!

Atheists and non-religious people are not the only people to consider. Not all religious people are Christian, after all.

I don't hear any of them ranting about a Christmas Tree here. But even when you consider all other beliefs other than Christians here in Rhode Island they all amount to 12.5%.

Thank You Michael ! I'm in full agreement !
I consider The Christmas Tree a Celebration of Christ's Birth because yes we Love Jesus ! As in all birthdays of our Loved ones we celebrate with parties, festive etc.!
Each to his own but please don't attack another if your views are different.
Merry Christmas !

A 2005 survey published in Encyclopædia Britannica found that the non-religious made up about 11.9% of the world's population, and atheists about 2.3%.

A November–December 2006 poll published in the Financial Times gives rates for the United States and five European countries. The lowest rates of atheism were in the United States at only 4%,

Live Science Study: Atheists 2.04% http://www.livescience.com/15944-top-religions-global.html

Atheist militants would have us believe that their cult is growing but it is not.

They are an insignificant few.

That we allow them to try to remove religion from our society is absurd.

It will not happen.

"Now, we will begin to truly impose our will."

And YOU WILL LOSE. What don't you understand about that, Joe? The Constitution was constructed to PROTECT the minority from the will of the majority. Otherwise, rights wouldn't NEED to be protected. The Supreme Court has ruled, time and time again, that any endorsement of religion or religious belief by the government or a government entity, is ILLEGAL. In order to change that and allow governments to endorse religion, you marginalize and discriminate against the minority, something that goes against the very nature of the Constitution and the founding of this nation.

As Willy Wonka said, "You LOSE! Good DAY, sir!" lol :)

Christmas refers to a religious holiday, something that a government entity cannot do. I have no idea why you find this so hard to comprehend, Joe.

Yeah, you keep living in that fantasy world of yours, Joe.

LOL, nice how you make this into some sort of comic book thing, though. The war between the forces of good and evil! How awesome it must be to live in your ignorantly bliss world, where you're the good guy, and anyone who disagrees with you is the bad guy.

And YOU are certainly no match against the power of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Meatballs be thy name. Ramen. (See how silly I sound to you? You sound just as silly to us.)

We don't believe in your god, or any other gods, Joe. So invoking your god's name against us is about as silly as a little kid invoking the power of his Power Rangers toy against us. We just shrug it off and focus on the REAL issue: the people who do horrible things in their gods' names.

We were once the silent minority, Joe, but we're quickly growing in numbers. Critical thinking and rational logic will take over as your bronze-age beliefs and dogma will soon go the way of Greek mythology, Roman mythology, and other dead religions. Today's religion is tomorrow's mythology, Joe. Always remember that. In a few millennia, Christianity (as well as Judaism and Islam) will be a long abandoned remnant of our distant past.

"Dillusional"? Is that for believers in the Invisible Space Pickle?

http://www.treelobsters.com/2010/12/211-really.html

So, you have now revealed yourselves for what you really are.

Demonic abberations.

Spewing your hateful venom.

http://www.treelobsters.com/2011/06/275-eternal.html

This is absolutely hilarious, Joe! Keep going, you're providing entertainment for hundreds or thousands of people!

It's all become some comic book scenario to you, hasn't it? You're so deep into your own delusion that it's impossible for you to see just how silly you sound.

Did you also forget about the part where you are a denizen of the fiery pits of marinara hell? And how you insult the Pastafarian religion by mocking and tormenting the followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and YOU will burn for all eternity in the hell that I'VE concocted in my head?

Really, Joe, come back to reality with the rest of us. Or don't, this is better than TV. :-D

Ohhhh... I predicted it in the "Other Thread"

It's only a matter of time before they start chanting and burning incense and speaking in tongues... Wonder when he'll have one of those religious trances that ends in a holy seizure - or is that only in Voodoo...?

I'm not kidding!! I'LL TURN THIS CAR AROUND!! We'll see how much you'll laugh with a bar of soap in your mouth!!

http://www.treelobsters.com/2011/09/307-introspecd.html

Of all the people piously going on about how sacred the name "Christmas Tree" is (most especially YOU Joe The Plumber), how many of you (if you are indeed so deeply reverent and pious as you claim), if commanded by God, (as was Abraham), would obey him if he commanded you to sacrifice your first born over an alter, to be slaughtered, allowed to bleed completely out and then burned as an offering to him? How many of you here are as pious, as God-fearing, and as loyal a disciple as you claim to be?

More to the point, how many here would do so with the same blind zeal with which you DEMAND that the rest of us call it a "Christmas Tree"?

Show of hands...?

Anyone...? Bueller...? Bueller...? Bueller......?

Thought so.

KTHX... can we LET THIS ISSUE GO NOW????

Very well put, David. Not to mention we should ALL praise their god and worship their savior and celebrate his birthday in the way that THEY demand it. Using stolen Pagan and Germanic customs on a day that is furthest from the actual date that Jesus would have been born (assuming he were real). It makes perfect sense...to them.

Integrity to you.

Stupidity to most others.

Your rants: normal to you.

Comic book lunacy to most others.

You are most likely correct in your assumption that this is done to avoid lawsuits and other legal challenges. So what? Read the Constitution, and the many Supreme Court decisions and laws having to do with religious displays by government entities. It's largely banned (yet one loophole is using it in an historical context, which gets abused quite often), and for good reason. Government should never be involved in religious affairs, and should never be in the business of endorsing any religious belief(s). It should remain secular in this regard.

Lindsay, I'll bash any religion that has hubris enough to condone it's participants shoving their beliefs down my throat, while falsely accusing me of persecuting them by the mere act of speaking. It is indeed disgusting to NOT bash such a religion.

Why must religion get a free pass with regards to abominable behavior?

I'm sure you love those Westboro Baptist Church folks then, right? You certainly don't bash their religious beliefs, so therefore you must be in agreement with them, I guess. "Bashing" comes in many forms, but if you simply mean "arguing against", then it's our freedom of speech that guarantees we can say whatever we want about religion or religious beliefs.

If you don't want your beliefs to be ridiculed, then don't hold just ridiculous beliefs.

Again, for clarity's sake, let me restate that. The number of those that vote for calling it a "Christmas Tree" on this poll amounts to a mere 0.067 percent of the population of this state.

Basic math. It's not rocket science.

Listen, we all know what YOU people call it. And nobody is stopping YOU from calling YOUR tree whatever the hell you want. What I DON'T want to see is the government giving any religion preferential treatment (something that is ILLEGAL by the way, and something you are going to have to live with), so calling it a Holiday tree will have to do. It is something that has been done in Rhode Island for DECADES -- it didn't just randomly start with Gov. Chafee.

Christmas is a holiday. The tree, a symbol which your religion stole from Pagan and Germanic religions, is a Christmas tree, a Holiday tree, whatever kind of tree you want to call it. But if it is part of an official government-run display, it cannot be called "Christmas tree" for obvious reasons. We all live in a secular nation, with a Constitution and laws that guarantee religious freedom by first disallowing the government from getting involved in any way with religion or religious beliefs.

Also, "O Tannenbaum" translates to "O fir tree" and originally had nothing to do with Christmas. It was you Christians, yet again, who stole the song, co-opted it for your own use, and now pretend that it always referred to your specific holiday.

Stop living in this fantasy world where Christianity is the only belief system that matters. We all share this state, and this country.

Yes, be assured, good citizen, that the evil atheists and secularists are just a minority and, as such, we can safely stomp and trample all over them. Their rights matter not, good friends and neighbors, because we are Christians, and we are superior! HEIL CHRISTMAS TREE!!!

Seriously, Joe, you provide endless entertainment. Please, tell us more about this comic book fantasy you've got going on here. It's quite hilarious.

And you dear Dick and your atheist friends are still insignificant and irrelevant bullies.

Ooh, nice touch on the "Dick". Last time I was called that was back in middle school. Guess we know what kind of mentality you have, Joe the... the... Joe the Toilet Licker! DER HER HER!

Anyway, what exactly are we bullying you into doing? NOT trampling on our rights? Recognizing us as equals? Think about the possibility that what you believe is silly, outdated, and immoral?

It's funny that you try to marginalize us and say we are insignificant and don't matter, then in the same sentence, claim that we're bullying you. Which is it?

I don't have to try too hard to marginalize you Dick. You and your intolerant atheist minions are doing a fine job of it right here one this blog by exposing your own ignorance.

Not to mention that you represent only 2% of Americans which is pretty insignificant on its own merit.

You mean the commenters? Please, show how I'm "bullying" them. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Yes, his comments are quite... Hitler-ish, aren't they? Oh no, I've broken (or followed?) Godwin's Law... lol

Thanks Joseph for the note and the removal, which seems sensible, although it must be difficult to maintain a "real time" review of comments. Alternatively, there might be a virtue to allowing the tactic of simply repeating old posts, in order for readers to judge for themselves how a contributor operates, as long as it didn't get out of hand. Did not the Patch used to have a marker indicating that a post had been deleted? A marker would allow readers to see how continuity in the thread was lost when a post simply disappears.

If you're replying to somebody, for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, USE THE REPLY BUTTON. We can't tell who you're talking to. If you're just talking to yourself, go away and do it somewhere else.

So you are now the blog Grand Wizard and Royal Highness?

Get a grip Dicky. Your actually beginning to beleive in your own self importance.

What you just said has nothing to do with what I said. Good job using the Reply button. Now let's go a step further, shall we. Use the CORRECT Reply button. You get an A for effort.

You. Are. Not. A. Blogger. Until you show us your blog (and learn what that word means), stop calling yourself one. I'm a blogger. My blog is at yetanotheratheist.com. That's what a blog is. You're just a commenter. And a troll. A rude one, at that.

We are not fomenting hate, Joe. That would be you. Your petty, insulting comments and divisive statements are the stuff that bigotry and hatred are made of.

People like me are calling you out on your B.S. That's not hate-mongering. That's not rudeness. That's intellectual honesty. I'm sorry if that's a concept that you find foreign.

Go back up and read our comments, then read yours. Then tell us if you truly believe that we're being more hateful and spiteful than you are.

Since I'm not stupid, I'll reply to your comment *in the right location*:

"So you are now the blog Grand Wizard and Royal Highness? Get a grip Dicky. Your actually beginning to beleive in your own self importance."

So just because somebody corrects your obvious mistake, suddenly they're pretending to be a "Grand Wizard and Royal Highness"? You really need to get a grip on reality, Joe. All I was doing was saying, for the umpteenth time, that you are not a blogger until you have an actual blog. It's not a hard concept to understand, Joe. You're being willfully obtuse. I'm still holding out hope that you're some kind of Poe (see: Poe's Law) and are punking all of us with you idiotic behavior. If so, bravo, I fell for the joke.

The really funny thing is that JTP is again pleading to have the government (the Patch) shut down speech he dislikes, and the Patch has the equivalent to an Establishment Clause!! It's hysterical!! He can't attain his objectives with rational argument and so resorts to a plea for force on his behalf!!!

Hey Dick, "Since I'm not stupid" you say?

You are about the dumbest person I've come across in last few decades.

And devisive? Well, you can't divide the 2% of the people that share your dillusional view much more....

Again with the "dillusional" Invisible Space Pickle. And again with the repetition of 2% when it's 15%. Again with the toilet-wall name-pun.

Keep excreting all over yourself Joe. It shows how delusional you really are. THIS from the person that rails the most that his religion is being censored. A demand that this thread be deleted. From the one who is most guilty of calling people insulting names, a huge WHHHHHHHIIIIINNNNEEE that others are calling him names... Why do you persist in this behavior, Joe? When EVERYONE that reads this can see that you are the quintessential child caught with one hand in cookie jar, a stack of cookies in the other hand and crumbs all over your face and shirt that has the temerity to proclaim "It wasn't me, it was you!" Such children are usually disciplined quite harshly. Not so much for lying but for being so stupid. And as a result of that, I can only assume that you have some sort of mental handicap or emotional disability Joe The Plumber, and in good conscience, will no longer engage you.

Wow, talk about self-importance. You go on being a Warrior for Christ, buddy. The rest of us will go on with our lives while you fight imaginary battles with demons and evil atheists who bother you so much with WORDS. lol

JOIN US as those wacky, militant, lunatic atheist demons and their evil MINIONS (yes, some people actually have MINIONS) work for the great deceiver to actually preserve the US Constitution. Hilarity ensues as they grapple with religious bigots, authoritarians, would-be tyrants, and the "dillusion" of the Invisible Space Pickle.

If I'm so evil where's my hidden lair? Surely it can't be the 4 cardboard standups I have of the hobbits from Lord of the Rings? They are taped together so it forms a little hobbit height wall that I can hide behind. Does that count? Can they double as minions?

WHY CAN'T I HAVE A HIDDEN LAIR????????

Use the Reply... ooohhhhh, forget it.

So the numbers mean WHAT, exactly? A long time ago, 99% of the population believed the Sun revolved around the Sun. A long time before that, 99% of the population believed the world was flat.

They were WRONG.

He shaved you? Everyone has their kink, I guess...

Great stinking prunes, Joe! Seek medication!

Seriously. Before you burst a blood vessel or pick up a gun. Find a decent shrink. You are psychotic.

Preach. That'll be beneficial. Thank you JTP for personally knowing what your fictional god and son-not-a-son-actually-the-god-and-the-son-simultaneously-or-something-similarly-convoluted-and-self-contradictory is/are thinking about me. I wouldn't trust you to clean a plugged toilet since you seem to be contributing to the blockage here. JTP and others like him posit the reality of an omnipotent being and then have the hubris to speak as if they knew what that being wanted and then, based on that vain assumption based upon a fiction, assume the right to try to engage the primary agent of force in our culture, the government, to cram their beliefs down the throats of those who disagree with them. It's delusional, arrogant, megalomaniacal and tyrannical. Not one commenter here has asserted that any believer in this bronze age fiction ought to be deprived of the right to believe such transparent silliness. Knock yourselves out. You just don't get to use our common government to force it on the rest of us. Some people will never grasp the distinction. Believe your bronze age fairy tales at home, in your churches, wherever, nobody cares, in fact we defend the constitution that defends your right to hold such bizarre and false beliefs. You just can't use our government to force your beliefs on the rest of us.

And the percentage of non-believers is 15%, not 2%.

Well jeeeeeeesssshhhh!! If ya wouldn't try to CRAM IT DOWN OUR THROATS 50 TIMES A DAY we might actually not have much to say about you at ALL!!! DIDJA THINK OF THAT? DUHHHHHH!!!

Wanna actually use your think meat next time ya open your mouth?

"Did IQ's just... *drop* sharply while I was away??" - Ripley, Aliens

That could be the same thread where religious fanatics assert 50 times a day how much they despise non-believers and that those religious fanatics ought to be able to co-opt our government to force their beliefs on those who disagree with them. We sure haven't had enough of that here lately.

It's funny you try to connect logic with your point, because you just committed a logical fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

“In logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it; which alleges: ‘If many believe so, it is so.’”

In a society truly ruled by logic, you would be laughed out of the building in an instant.

2 of JTP's now standard mantras: 1. If he says 2% often enough no one will notice that there are 15% non-believers. 2. If he mentions "majority" often enough no one will notice that the number of adherents has NOTHING TO DO with constitutional rights except in so far as those rights are protected against ANY majority number. Basic civics.

That JTP continues to use these tactics to try and manipulate people to believe his falsehoods, show him to be nothing more than a manipulator, a liar, and a wanna-be tyrant happy to try to force others to comply with his bizarre beliefs simply because he has the bigger stick. As to delusions, he believe in the Invisible Space Pickle - non-believers do not.

It is not uncommon for delusional persons like Dick and Janus to concoct conspiracies where there are none and accuse everyone else as being lunatics.

This is a classic display of psychosis by Dick and Janus in that they truly believe Christians are out to get them and that their lunatic vision of reality is correct while the majority of society is wrong.

Doreen Costa's mindless minions shouted down a CHILDREN'S CHOIR???? It's clear now EXACTLY what they want. "After Chafee lit the 'holiday' tree, a few dozen carolers interrupted a performance by a children's chorus to sing "O Christmas Tree." They will stop at NOTHING to get it either. Not even children are safe.

They want the state to sanction and give special recognition to their religion, and if they don't get them they are willing to trample over EVERYONE to get it... even children.

What next from the rabid Catholics in this state?? Gonna get together and kick puppies in the ribs on Christmas Eve?

Yeah. And I'm the Crown Prince Of Alderaan.

Go take your meds, child.

So Paul. Tell us what you will do as your family celebrates the birth of Christ. Will be as insulting and mean to them as you have been on this blog?

This is just silliness. Non- Xtians celebrate seasonal holidays which originated before Christianity and which Christians assimilated their beliefs into, just fine. They merely want the constitutional prohibition on government establishing religion to be upheld. Once again: please try to grasp the distinction between government and private.

Rather obviously, non-believers don’t celebrate the birth of Jesus, and many believe that Jesus is a fiction. Their families don’t preach at them; don’t tell them that they’re going to burn eternally in hell because they don’t believe in bronze age myths; don’t tell them that a special knowledge of some fictional god’s will (because they alone, of all the believers in the world, have infallible knowledge of their omnipotent god’s wishes) must be followed; don’t tell them that they will be forced to accept the government establishing someone else’s religious beliefs.

This is why you appear to be such an extremist, JTP, because you assert that YOUR beliefs, and YOUR personal belief in the infallibility of YOUR interpretation of them, mean that anyone who doesn’t share YOUR belief is evil and must be going to YOUR version of hell, of which YOU somehow have personal knowledge, and that YOU are entitled to force other’s to comply with YOUR beliefs (JTP:“Now we will begin to truly impose our will”). It reeks of megalomania and hubris. Any nuanced believer ought to be embarrassed at this kind of certitude.

I know I'll be celebrating with my Catholic family without a single insult... because it GOES BOTH WAYS, Joe. You insulted us, claimed some grand conspiracy of "militant" atheists invading a Patch article. Most of us are Rhode Islanders (or Bay Staters who live within throwing distance of Rhode Island) who want to voice our opinion on this issue, just as you have.

Take a look at your own writings, Joe. If anybody is throwing insults around, it's you. If anybody is guilty of concocting conspiracy theories, it's you, Joe. Nobody agrees with you, no matter how much you try to convince them.

You see, my family doesn't accuse me or my two atheist cousins of trying to destroy their religion, exterminate Christmas, or any other silly accusation. In turn, I'm respectful toward their beliefs and gladly tolerate their mentions of Jesus Christ and his birth. And when it comes time for midnight mass, I politely decline and sleep instead.

You see, Joe, in my family, we're NORMAL. We don't accuse each other of comic book-style wrong-doings, nor do we concoct conspiracy theories about the "other side". It's never "us vs. them" in my family, because we're all normal, rational people, Joe.

Most atheists don't have a problem with religion, until it's shoved down our throats, shoved in our public schools, or shoved anywhere else. If you wouldn't like the government to endorse atheist messages ("There are no gods! Happy solstice!"), then think about how we feel w/ it endorsing yours.

So if you will be celebrating with your family, they will be celebrating the birth of Christ and you will be celebrating the " fictional god and son-not-a-son-actually-the-god-and-the-son-simultaneously-or-something-similarly-convoluted-and-self-contradictory " as you put it.

That must make your family very happy that you ridicule the Son of God that way.

I never said that. Please, point to the exact post where I said those words.

My family understand that my opinions are my opinions, and I keep them to myself, UNLESS PROVOKED, or unless it's in a situation where debate is ENCOURAGED, such as this forum. If you can't handle that, then go to a Christian forum where there are probably a handful of people just like you.

But how dare you misquote me, Joe. My family knows how I feel about their beliefs, but we're all able to set all that aside in order to enjoy the holiday season, spending time with each other, enjoy each other's company, etc.

You wanna know what I celebrate on Christmas, Joe? I celebrate family. I celebrate togetherness. I celebrate unity. I celebrate giving to the poor, feeding and clothing those who cannot afford to do so themselves. I celebrate humanity, humanism, and helping your fellow man. That's what I celebrate. I don't celebrate Jesus's birthday. Most of my Catholic family don't even mention Jesus once during the entire holiday season.

Joe was quoting me, not you, Richard - an error or simply carelessness on his part.

To ridicule, JTP, your “fictional god and son-not-a-son-actually-the-god-and-the-son-simultaneously-or-something-similarly-convoluted-and-self-contradictory” (to quote myself, as you are quoting me), is not to ridicule a real existing thing, what you call a “Son of God”, but only a bizarre delusional idea that you hold. Your belief in this fictional entity is so weird and wonderfully wacky that no amount of ridicule can do justice to how far from reality it is. This would yield some innocent good fun were you to have any sense of proportion or humor about your beliefs…any ability to put them in the context of a planet where billions of people don’t share your beliefs, among them 1.1 bln non-believers, but you’re a megalomaniac, who asserts personal infallible knowledge of your fictional beings’ (or is that just one being? That whole god-son-holy spirit puzzle thing gets exhausting to unravel) beliefs, and you use your strange beliefs as the basis for advocating that our government be the agent for forcing those beliefs on those who recognize them for the bronze age nonsense they are.

hey it is a FREE diner, cooked by right wing whack jobs why no go!

Sigh... so much of this has already been discussed here John. No one is refusing to acknowledge it as a "Christmas Tree" the fight is with those that DEMAND that everyone be required by law to call it that. Please, PLEASE read before you post.

John,

If you read the rest of this discussion you would realize that Paul and a group of militant atheists have tried to seize control of the discussion and to prevent and discourage anyone with opposing viewpoints from voicing their opinion. In your case he used the "Sigh.... what you have to say has been said before.... what's wrong with you, stop bothering us...."

IF you had bothered to read (or at least to skim), you'd have read in this discussion that the moderator has indicated that posts that are too redundant will get deleted. With all the crazies that love to post tomes and elephantine volumes of spew all over the internet, I think this is a sound and fair policy. It keeps databases slim and makes people think twice before continuing to beat a dead horse.

THAT is your consequence for failing to read and at least get the gist of what's already been said here.

Oh and Joe, Go take your meds!

This is a large part of the reason my posting has tapered off in this thread. There is only so much to say and I feel I've said it all in painful detail. And I'd really rather not get my stuff deleted or have a mark against me by the moderators as just another kook.

Actually I have had mine up all year in the past. I celebrate laziness!

"Detached from reality" Realllly...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiday_greetings

At Christmas we also say "Happy Holidays!," "Seasons Greetings!" "Best Wishes For the Holidays!" or "Holiday Greetings!" - THOSE have been a longstanding tradition too. Going back at least 150 years, coined by some of the most religiously conservative Christians ever known - the Victorians. It continues today all over the world. Parocial, provincial, yokelistic Rhode Island (or even the USA) is NOT the measure of what the world needs to say to you.

Get over yourself. Stop acting like it's a law that carries the death penalty to say anything other than "Merry Christmas" - say what you want, and accept the intended spirit in which any different greeting is given.

Grow up and have a Happy Wookie Life Day!

Paul, this has nothing to do with me my friend. I'm comfortable in my own skin, I know who I am and what I believe. It has everything to do with political correctness. I say happy holidays, seasons greetings as well as merry Christmas. I also say happy Chaunakah to my Jewish friends. I personally am not offended if someone says it me either. The last governor of RI called it both, which if Chaffee really wanted to be inclusive of everyone he would of done the same. And if you take this as a one off, it may even fly by without notice. But this is a growing trend in America designed to eliminate our Christian traditions and heritage so as not to offend anyone. Well, I am offended and I am not the only one. I apologize if being offended and speaking out against it offends you. That is not my intention. I just want to celebrate Christmas without state censorship of speech and religious expression.

But Jay, nobody is taking away your right to call your tree whatever you want. Nobody is taking away your right to celebrate Christmas however you want it. You may very well celebrate the religious side of Christmas (Jesus, the manger, the wise men, the birth of Christ, etc.), while others (including the government) celebrates the secular side (Santa, reindeer, elves, candy canes, trees and lights). There is nothing religious or specifically Christian about trees and lights, other than the fact that it was co-opted by Christians and attached to their holiday after already being established as other religions' customs.

I'm not going to go the whole "you stole it from Pagans" route, but please remember that there is nothing religious or Christian about evergreen trees. I see nothing wrong with Chafee continuing the tradition of calling it a "Holiday tree". There's nothing to get worked up over. I still call mine a Christmas tree, even though I'm atheist, because Christmas has evolved beyond the Christian origins. It has become something bigger and greater than the birth of Christ: it is a celebration of humanism in all forms -- feeding the hungry, helping the sick and the poor, donating toys to children, donating time at shelters and soup kitchens -- helping out our fellow man (or woman).

That is what Christmas is to most people nowadays. Almost none of the Christians in my family celebrate the birth of Christ as much as they celebrate the humanist aspects of Christmas.

It would appear to me that Chafee is the one that is manufacturing a controversy. The legislature didnt read the resolution and they passed it. Now, you could argue that this is a clear case of "Congress shall make no laws respecting the establisment of religion" but is a resolution really a law? And if you wanna talk about the RI state constitution, I ask all of those Athiests on this thread, Why do you live in RI? Have you read the preamble to our state constitution???

PREAMBLE
We, the people of the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and to transmit the same, unimpaired, to succeeding generations, do ordain and establish this Constitution of government.

Ah, yes, the old "if you don't like it, leave" argument. Jay, you DO realize that the US Constitution overrules any state's Constitution, right?

Also, how is Chafee the one manufacturing controversy? All he did was call his tree a "Holiday tree". It's the conservative Christians who are coming out of the woodwork and complaining about how offended they are, how Chafee is taking away their beliefs and their religion, and how it's a Christmas tree, dammit, and how dare anybody call it anything else! It's the same manufactured controversy we get every single year, when people try to convince us that saying Merry Christmas to certain people offends them, and people are forced to say Happy Holidays instead. In reality, it's those same people who are offended that people dare wish them well without mentioning the holiday they specifically believe in.

Jay you are right this is a NON BINDING resolution. This what makes this so silly the resolution was pushed through and has no teeth, Yet Costa and her crew are claiming that by not following the resolution the governor is legally side stepping the general assembly and ignoring "the voice of the people." How is this resolution the voice of the people? It was not voted on. No one asked me or any one else I know. This has nothing to do with the people, instead it is an attention grab by Costa. A campaign stunt. these people are not rational. But they are rude and willing to shout down little kids who by the way were singing Christmas songs, songs celebrating the very holiday they where claiming to defend. This shows how rude the Chistmas tree protestors are. I was there in fact I was handing out flyers talking about how Costa CREATED this controversy where there was no REAL controversy, this was all a political stunt by Coata to get her free air time on and it worked! It is also important to note that her major supporter was the morning host of the radio station she works for. Can you say nepotism?

My point is at no time did I or anyone I was with disrupt her tree lighting this shows how arrogant these people are. To shout down little kids HOW is this Christ like ?

Richard, I think Chafee manufactured the controversy by calling it a holiday tree. If he just put the tree up and said here's our Christmas tree, crisis avoided. Chafee is the chief executive of our state, if he doesn't have the maturity to choose his battles wisely, then he doesn't deserve the office. This is a battle he should have avoided and could have avoided by saying NOTHING. I long for a state and federal government that does exactly that, NOTHING!!!

And yes, I am well aware that the feds have the states by the cojones. But isn't that the crux of our probles today? States rights and the over reaching arm of the federal government? I am not sure why that question was asked? But while we're at it, do you realize that all 50 State constitutions refer to our "Creator" by name? God, The supreme ruler of the universe, or The Almighty God. I was amazed by it. Some states even explicitly say that you can't hold office if you deny the existence of a supreme ruler of the universe. Of course, article 6, clause 3 in the US constitution specifically forbids a religious "purity" test. I'm just wondering when WE THE PEOPLE figured out that WE THE PEOPLE know everything and do not need to rely on God or faith anymore. Now that I think of it, it was probably right around the start of the "progressive" era huh?

In the 1961 case Torcaso v. Watkins, the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously ruled that such language in state constitutions was in violation of the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the US Constitution, but did not rule on the applicability of Article VI, stating that "Because we are reversing the judgment on other grounds, we find it unnecessary to consider appellant's contention that this provision applies to state as well as federal offices." In the 1997 case of Silverman v. Campbell the South Carolina Supreme Court ruled that the state constitution requiring an oath to God for employment in the public sector was unconstitutional.

So, you see, state Constitutions can, themselves, be considered (in part) unconstitutional.

"supreme law of the land", not "mind". No idea what kind of Freudian slip that was. lol

Oh, so Chafee didn't call the tree what YOU wanted, so he's to blame? This is the thug mentality of many conservative Christians and apologists; they demand that people comform to their specifications. Then, when they create the controversy (like Doreen Costa did, using WPRO as a soapbox for her whining), they point to Chafee and blame him.

"If he doesn't have the maturity to choose his battles wisely"? What battle!? Chafee isn't battling anybody! He continued a tradition that had been going on for YEARS, calling it a Holiday Tree, doing NOTHING out of the ordinary that hadn't been done in the past. What is he battling, exactly? Christianity? By doing the same thing that other governors before him had done for years?!

The US Constitution is the supreme law of the mind. I'm sorry that it contains an Establishment Clause, but there it is, ink on parchment, clear as day. I'm also sorry that you feel states deserve some special rights over the federal government, which is clearly not the case. Again, no state Constitution can overrule the US Constitution. That's why any of them that say you must be a theist to hold public office is immediately made null and void by Article 6, Clause 3 of the US Constitution, as you so rightly pointed out.

**Also, how is Chafee the one manufacturing controversy? All he did was call his tree a "Holiday tree". It's the conservative Christians who are coming out of the woodwork and complaining about how offended they are**,

As others have explained, (see Ed Achorn's column), Gov. Chafee did indeed 'manufacture the controversy', sort of. Gov. Carcieri at least, and probably previous Govs, called it a holiday tree and nobody cared. Gov. Chafee, however, had to give us a lecture on why it should not be called a Christmas tree.
However that was hardly a big deal, and conservative Christians did indeed jump all over it, with various motivations. So both bear some responsibility for 'manufacturing' a totally unnecessary confrontation.

We're in agreement regarding term limits, and "douching" the government as you said it (I love that term by the way).

Did you actually listen and try to understand the Bishops remarks? His concern was that the Chistmas tree issue was troubling because it is symptomatic of a much more serious problem of removing religion entirely from our public landscape. That is not a "feel-good thing" nor is it insignificant to people of faith. It is a grave and valid concern.

I can only imagine the same period under the Republican party; just South County and Lincoln (no taxes, only filthy rich white people, (with servants) and the rest of the state. Utopia!!!

What???

So this is the level of humor you are attracted to? I'm glad to see you are exposing your hatred of Christ more and more with each comment you post Janus.

We can all find solice however in the fact that your malicious atheist anti-christ views are only shared by 2% of society.

Joe The Plumber - hypocrite,hypocrite, hypocrite.

No, JTP, I don’t hate a fictitious character from a bronze age fable - neither the Jesus character nor the Invisible Space Pickle you worship. I doubt that many of the planet’s 15% non-believers do either, though most of them would probably dislike little religious-authoritarians like you. Satire is not malice, but only biting humorous commentary. Only megalomaniacs like you, without a shred of humor, want their bizarre bronze age beliefs to be exempt from satire.

The comic I posted satirizes in 4 little frames a bunch of your silly beliefs, putting into place that your faith of bizarre beliefs is just one of many; that adherents of other faiths, and non-believers, believe different things; that your faith’s symbols and seasonal practices were largely adopted from other belief systems pre-dating Christianity; that your beliefs are fictional; that Xtians (and other similarly deluded adherents of other bizarre faiths) like you have a persecution complex; that you think that non-Christian celebrations of the solstice time of year represent a loss of meaning (although to many they represent a rediscovery of the true meaning of these seasons by casting off Xtian myths), and that Dec. 25 is not just a fictional birthday but the wrong fictional birthday (your faith is not just nonsense, but not even internally consistent nonsense).

so Ruggerri and Janus,

I figure you will be circulating this cartoon mocking Christ to you Chistian friends and family during Chistmas festivities?

"although only 1 to 2 percent refer to themselves as atheists. "

You just proved my point. That's what I've been saying all along.

It's more like 76%, Joe. Stop lying already. Jesus would be ashamed of how you've been behaving on these boards. For shame, Joe. For shame.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7041036&page=1#.TuIsJvKbL-I

That means nearly a QUARTER of the people in this country are NON-Christians. One in four, Joe. One in four.

You know, Liberty Janus, I liken the Christianity majority to that of white people. There are far more white people in the U.S. that any other minority (that's why they're called minorities!). White people exclusively played a huge part in our country's founding. Our founding fathers were ALL white. So does that mean we are a white nation? Does that mean that white people should get special privileges? Does that mean black, Asian, hispanic, etc. people don't matter? Do their opinions mean less, as a minority?

No, because we are all equal under the law (at least more so today than a decades or centuries ago). White people shouldn't have special rights under the law any more than black people should. It doesn't matter whether the founding fathers were all white, because we are all equal and deserve equal rights.

Same goes for non-theists and non-Christians. We are all equal under the law. Christians deserve no special treatment just because some of the founding father may or may not have been Christians as well.

If a business owner were Christian, but said specifically in his employee guide that all religions are equal and equally respected in his building... would it then make sense for the new CEO who takes over after the owner dies, to then demand that everybody celebrate Christian holidays, even if they're not Christian? And to then use the previous owner's religion to back himself up?

That's what people on here need to really think about.

Precisely RB.

Joe! Meds! NOW!!

You've been moaning and chanting "2%" for days and days! Just give it up, dude... seek meds bro.

As I have repeatedly observed, JTP, you continue to try to misrepresent the people who DISAGREE with you and who would be directly coerced by a belief system they DO NOT EMBRACE, when government acts to establish Christianity, as ONLY the 2% poll-professed atheists when you must also include the poll-professed agnostics and the category known as "None", and non-Christian believers. The “None” category, which has a variety of kinds of non-believers, of which atheists are only one type of non-believer, comprised 8.2% in 1990, 14.2% in 2001, and 15% in 2008. Among 18 to 29 year olds the Nones comprise 22%. The total non-Christian population is 24% = 74 million non-Christians.

You continue to do this either because your intellectual shortcomings are even greater than is obvious, or because you're deliberately misrepresenting the facts to try to manipulate people into believing that the number of Christians in the US is greater than it is, in some bizarre belief that this justifies your 76% Christians violating the constitution . Additionally, you just avoid addressing why ANY amount of minorities ought to have their constitutional rights violated by any other majority group, let alone the huge (HUGE) minority of 74 million non-Christian Americans. You continue to demonstrate that facts have little meaning for you. You're only interested in forcing your strange beliefs on those who don't share them.

Attempting to sort through the name calling here, there really seems to be an 'apples and oranges' miscommunication between 'atheists' and 'non-Christians.'
True, the number of Americans who either do not believe in a particular faith or at least do not practice it is quite high. On the other hand, the percentage who, upon hearing that their will be a national Christmas tree on the White House lawn, will go running to their attorney about this affront to the constitution,would certainly be less than 2%
Similarly, the number of people who, upon seeing a banner in a public place saying 'May whatever Holy father you believe in provide you with guidance' , and being so disturbed that they feel the need to take corrective action, would certainly be well under 2%.
The VAST majority of 'non-practicing Christians' would simply see these as benign, largely positive messages in a predominantly Christian population, and move on.
If the 2% is referring to militant, divisive atheists claiming that 'no God' is the only rational belief and mocking those who believe otherwise, such as those represented here, then the number is probably high.

When I repeat the distinction between apples and oranges over and over, and others conflate them over and over, one concludes either that they’re deliberately conflating them to misrepresent their ideology as being more relevant than it is, or they simply can’t understand the fairly simple distinction. Either way they’re wrong. The Os are a separate, but related, discussion from the core (no pun intended) discussion of As. You, SC, observe that there are two fruits, but again, because you’re essentially a propagandist for the Christians in these debates, choose to highlight the O discussion, while more or less avoiding the apple core discussion.

The core principle of the apple discussion is that government establishment of religion is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

As for the orange argument estimates you make – these are speculation. What kind of people might or might not have one or other opinions about the banner, may be interesting speculations, but are separate from the issue of constitutionality. You make the same conflation that others make, implying, without actually saying so, that a constitutional violation should be allowed to stand because only a (possibly) small (but possibly large) segment of the population actively opposes it. This is a false concept and strictly irrelevant to the fact that the constitution prohibits government establishment of religion and protects minorities from establishment and thereby protects EVERY citizens freedom of belief.

Janus,

I am a Christian.

So, for the second time I will ask, are you an atheist?

"Why are people offended about calling it a Christmas tree?"

Who is offended at calling it a Christmas tree? This is all in your head, John.

What you really should be asking is, Why are people offended about calling it a Holiday tree? What's so horrible about calling the tree whatever one wants to call it -- something that has been done FOR YEARS NOW. It's a tradition, John. If you don't like it, nobody was forcing you to attend the tree lighting ceremony. Put up your tree in YOUR house and call it whatever YOU want. I for one was glad the governor didn't give any preferential treatment to Christianity. It gets more than enough of that.

In radiology there is the 'Christmas Tree sign' denoting lower airway disease.
In Chess here is the Christmas Tree variation of the Dutch leningrad, where the pawns assume a triangular shape.
Im sure the same is true as a descriptive device for every discipline from engineering to biochemistry.
There are no 'holiday tree' signs or variations, for a good reason - there is no such thing.
If you showed a picture of a jagged green tree with ornaments and a star to 1000 Americans, 1000 Americans would say that is a Christmas tree. because that is what it is.
Just like radical feminists who long ago demanded a new name for manhole covers, divisive absolutists look particularly silly when they demand that we stop calling an object what it actually is, and insist on us using a new name, that it actually isn't.